Are Constant Calls for Nerfs Warranted? (Opinion and Discussion)

Over the past several weeks, Marvel Snap has issued several nerfs that changed the meta dramatically. Before the nerfs to Leader, Zabu, and Silver Surfer, players constantly displayed their grievances with the cards and why they needed nerfs. On the flip side, other players felt there was no issues, claiming cards like Leader were perfectly balanced and people were overreacting. Second Dinner clearly felt these cards needed nerfs or reworks since they were all changed. Now that the controversial cards have been dealt with, there is total peace on the Marvel Snap community and everyone believes the game is perfectly balanced!… Except we all know that’s not how it works.

Not long after the nerfs took place, players have already begun to call out which cards they think should also be nerfed. Several cards like Aero, Shuri + Red Skull combo, and even Dracula are being called for nerfs, despite not much widespread call for nerfs before the latest changes. Many players feel their points are valid, but other players find it to just be complaining. Furthermore, the recent buff to Thanos after it became a top tier deck suggests the timeline on these balance changes does not line up perfectly with the meta trend. Are constant calls for change like this founded on data and experience, or are they just complaints from upset players who see the same deck constantly or can’t compete with their favorite deck?

In this article, we will break this idea down and see if these calls for change are warranted or simply complaining.

The Newest Calls for Nerfs

Let’s start with the most recent complaints, Dracula and Shuri (Red Skull). Dracula rose to be somewhat of a meme on the Marvel Snap subreddit, with a lot of silly and serious discussion over how to counter Dracula or if he is too good. Other players find the discussion to be just complaining. Dracula sees play not only in the tier 3 deck Discard Dracula, but also in hand dump decks that aim for Dracula to hit The Infinaut for a surprise 20 power.

Shuri, on the other hand, is a much less diverse card, but extremely powerful in the right decks. Her ability to generate massive power has caused a lot of discussion in the reddit community, with some comparing Shuri players to “braindead” Leader players because of the ease of generating wins, specifically in regards to Shuri into Red Skull followed by Taskmaster or Arnim Zola. Some posts like this joke that the combo is so straightforward, almost half the deck doesn’t matter. Shuri slots perfectly into a Zero deck, which has made Shuri Zero one of the top tier decks in the game currently.

Are these complains warranted, or do players need to learn how to “get good” and be better prepared?

Breaking It Down

To talk about if a card is overpowered, let us use three simple criteria to measure.

1. Can the card be countered/teched?
2. Can the card/combo be similarly matched in power and energy?
3. How reliable is the card/ does the deck fail if the card isn’t drawn

Variants

Leader

On Reveal: Copy the enemy card(s) with the highest Power played this turn, but on your side.

Collection Level 486+ (Pool 3)

view card details Start a deck Decks with Leader

These criteria are in no way an official measurement, but rather a guide for discussion. Previously nerfed cards fit at least two of these criteria. Leader, for example, fit all three categories. He used to be extremely difficult to counter unless your deck was built around countering him. He created a large amount of power for his cost since he copied anything your opponent did, with the possibility of being even better than your opponent. He also wasn’t required to win if you didn’t draw him, but often provided a near guarantee for victory if he was drawn.

Variants

Zabu

Ongoing: Your 4-Cost cards cost 1 less. (minimum 1)

Series 4 Rare – Collection Level 486+ (Pool 4)

view card details Start a deck Decks with Zabu

Variants

Silver Surfer

On Reveal: Give your other 3-Cost cards +2 Power.

Collection Level 486+ (Pool 3)

view card details Start a deck Decks with Silver Surfer

After Leader‘s nerf, these criteria are no longer met. Zabu and Silver Surfer also meet these criteria, as they both had very little counter play unless you designed your deck around it. They also frequently provided massive power output compared to other cards or combos available. To better gauge of our example cards are too powerful, let’s use the the same criteria on them.

Variants

Shuri

On Reveal: If you play your next card here, double its Power.

Collection Level 486+ (Pool 3)

view card details Start a deck Decks with Shuri

Shuri offers the next card played to have massive power, but this often means the card is within reach for Shang-Chi to remove it. To combat this, Shuri players often use Armor and Cosmo to protect the huge target. This means the biggest counter, Shang-Chi, often times can’t do its job. Aero is the next tech option, but can be a bit less reliable as Arnim Zola and Taskmaster make the opponent’s follow up play unpredictable. This means players have very few counter play options unless you get a lucky Cosmo to drop in front of Shuri.

Variants

Red Skull

Ongoing: Enemy cards at this location have +2 Power.

Collection Level 486+ (Pool 3)

view card details Start a deck Decks with Red Skull

To measure the power output for Shuri, we will use her biggest target Red Skull. This gives a 5/30 stat line (varying down to as low as 22 if played on an opposing full lane). Task Master or Zola can give a second lane an additional 30 power, for a total stat line of 10(11)/60 between two turns. Considering no other card in the game has more than The Infinaut’s 20 power stat line, we have to look at what other combos can generate 60 power over a 3 turn commitment.

DeathWave

Created by den

, updated 5 months ago

35

4x Collection Level 18-214 (Pool 1)

3x Collection Level 222-474 (Pool 2)

5x Collection Level 486+ (Pool 3)

3.3

Cost

0-
1
2
3
4
5+

3.3

Power

0-
1
2
3
4
5+

The tier two deck DeathWave can play wave on 5, and play America Chavez, Death, and She-Hulk on turn 6 for a 34 power, two turn play. This leaves turn 4 to generate 26 power (18 power if Red Skull‘s effect is active on a full lane) to match the power of Shuri‘s combo. Of course cards like Shang-Chi could swing a lot of power back in your favor, but we are talking about raw power generation capabilities for each deck without tech cards. So in the case of DeathWave, the deck cannot keep up with the pace of Shuri.

Shuri Zero (Sauron)

Created by den

, updated 7 months ago

22

1x Collection Level 18-214 (Pool 1)

1x Collection Level 222-474 (Pool 2)

10x Collection Level 486+ (Pool 3)

3.6

Cost

0-
1
2
3
4
5+

5.5

Power

0-
1
2
3
4
5+

Finally, we take a look at the third criteria for Shuri, if the deck can operate without having her be drawn. In the ShuriZero deck, there are alternative plays for turn for such as Typhoid Mary, but there isn’t a real substitute that can provide the amount of power that she can. To simply put it, without Shuri, the deck is much more susceptible to a loss. Not only do we have to look at Shuri‘s draw rate, we have to consider the likelihood of also drawing Red Skull, and then also drawing Task Master or Arnim Zola. This further complicates the ability for this big combo to function properly.

When you look at the three criteria together, Shuri offers a combo with nearly unmatched levels of power. If Armor or Cosmo are played, the deck is very difficult to tech against, but that assumes the full combo is even drawn. In the example we used above, Shuri meets two of the three criteria that we are using to judge a card’s power.

Variants

Dracula

At the end of the game, discard a card from your hand. This has its Power.

Collection Level 486+ (Pool 3)

view card details Start a deck Decks with Dracula

Dracula is a similar card style in that he only is viable in certain deck styles, but much simpler to analyze. His power level has the potential to be unmatched if he discards a card like Infinaut, making him hold a 4 cost 20 power stat line. He cannot be countered through traditional means, but through sneaky tactics like Black Widow, where Dracula could discard a zero power target instead of a larger one. This counter is also his greatest weakness, in that you can’t control what he discards. If you didn’t empty your hand, he could easily discard a 1 cost over a 6 cost, which makes him inconsistent. Simply put, Dracula meets two of the criteria as he offers a unmatched power level at times and has very little tech options.

Based on the data, both cards should obviously be nerfed, right? It isn’t fair Dracula stole my cubes when he discarded, or when my opponent only won by playing three cards the entire game. Well, not every card that is good requires a nerf.

It’s Okay to Have Good Cards

In every card game, there will ALWAYS be good cards and bad cards. There will always be decks that are stronger than the rest, and there will be decks that will simply never be competitive. Marvel Snap is no different from other CCG’s in this fact. The key point to understand, however, is this fact is not a bad thing. Snap, like every card game, always wants to be perfectly balanced where every deck has an equal chance of winning. The task is next to impossible, though, when you need to constantly change the game with new cards and mechanics that change a card’s effectiveness. A card that was perfectly balanced before, may become too strong or too weak when new cards release that are synergistic, a counter, or simply have better stats than the cards before it. Balance updates can have the same effect.

Variants

Sandman

Ongoing: Players can only play 1 card a turn.

Collection Level 222-474 (Pool 2)

view card details Start a deck Decks with Sandman

After every update, a card or combo that was originally not viable may suddenly be one of the best in the game! Take a look at the latest sandman change for example. Sandman went from a 4/1 with hardly any play, to a 5/5 with the new potential to be a solid choice in countering many top decks! These changes can often be abrupt and dramatically shift the effectiveness of many player’s favorite decks. Using Sandman as an example, players who use Negative, DeathWave, or Sera may voice concern that Sandman is too good, as their gameplan is now unusable when the card is played. In reality, shifts like these are healthy for the game as they create change in the meta and keep things fresh.

Variants

Death

Costs 1 less for each card destroyed this game.

Collection Level 486+ (Pool 3)

view card details Start a deck Decks with Death

Good cards can also exist that simply offer better results than other cards. Death, for example, is a good card for destroy decks that has the potential of being a 0 cost 12 power card. If I told you a card in the game had 0/12 stats, you would say it sounded over powered! The balance of the card, however, comes from having to destroy 9 cards in a match, or getting supporting cards like Wave to make a combo happen. Both options are not guaranteed, which many times will make Death cost more or at times be unplayable. These variances and drawbacks help to make this good card not be too good. With that said, how can we determine if a card is too good?

Looking at the Data

One thing that players can’t see is the massive data that the developers have access to. They can see how often a card was included in a deck, how often it was played, how often the game was won with a card in play, what cards are often played together, and even the average cubes gained. The general player base can make their own data from our Marvel Snap Tracker or even based on their experiences, but the devs can see the data for all players, across all collection levels, and across all ranks and MMRs. This data is key to helping determine if a card is too strong. But what about the criteria we talked about?

Community conversation is also a big part of balancing decisions. On the official Discord, one of the developers, Stephen, wrote that “people would be surprised by the amount of community feedback that the dev team reads.” Community discussion can help not only highlight issues, but solutions to fix the issues. It can also be a way for players to figure out solutions already in game for how to counter a popular card of combo.

Dracula is a great example of this. Many community members were growing frustrated by not knowing how to counter Dracula. Once discussion started, ideas like black widow or moon night started popping up as a way to combat the card. If the community can’t find a solution and the card dominates the meta, the developers can combine their data with the community discussion to see if the card in question needs a change, or if other cards need a buff to offer more counter play.

Applying What We’ve Learned

To bring back our examples of Shuri and Dracula, let’s take everything we have discussed and apply them. Shuri has received a lot of community discussion as her combo (when it works) offers a massive amount of power that is unmatched, and the discussion has yet to stop. With tech cards in play, the deck feels unbeatable at times. What we don’t see is the full data the developers have in the background that shows the amount of games where Shuri was not drawn and if the player still won or not. We do, however, see the deck’s effectiveness as it has quickly risen into the top tier of decks next to Lockjaw Thanos and Zabu Darkhawk.

Lockjaw Thanos

Created by den

, updated 7 months ago

8

2x Collection Level 18-214 (Pool 1)

3x Collection Level 222-474 (Pool 2)

5x Collection Level 486+ (Pool 3)

1x Series 5 Ultra Rare – Collection Level 486+ (Pool 5)

1x Recruit Season

4.4

Cost

0-
1
2
3
4
5+

5.3

Power

0-
1
2
3
4
5+

Dracula, on the other hand, is not carrying a top tier place, but rather a tier 3 deck. While the card is difficult to counter, the variance of the card can lose you just as many games as it wins you. Dracula has been in the game since launch and has not been dramatically effected by new card releases or balance changes. After potential work arounds for Dracula were discussed in the community, the overall conversation died down and has not been a continued topic of debate.

Conclusion

At the start of this article, I asked a simple question: Are constant calls for nerfs warranted, or are they just complaints? After breaking it down with our examples, Shuri‘s combo has the potential to be over powered. The community discussion and the deck’s performance will help the developers to analyze the data and decide if a nerf is warranted to Shuri or her combo pieces. Dracula, on the other hand, may be a good card, but doesn’t appear to be over powered.

To summarize our findings using our examples, constant calls for nerfs will always happen. It is the nature of card games. The important thing to recognize is that some of these calls may be warranted (like Shuri) and some may not (like Dracula). Discussion can help highlight game issues to developers, or highlight ways the community can solve a card’s problem. Even if a player expresses concern over the silliest card, the discussion can help that player to learn how to grow and counter a card they struggle against. The idea that players will never be satisfied as a whole may be true, but it is also true that the game likely will never be perfectly balanced, so these discussions will help guide the game to a better place of balance.

What do you think? Are these calls for constant nerfs good for the game’s discussion and growth, or do you think otherwise? Are the calls for a change to Shuri Red Skull warranted? Make sure to let us know in the comments! Be sure to also keep up to date with the best decks with our tier list and our breakdowns of the new card each week!